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My fretting frustrations continue... I just can't seem to find a fret saw that fits the frets properly and I don't want to be filing the barbs off every fret by hand. I've heard several people on this forum say they cut fret slots wide enough so the frets push in easily and then rely on glue holding them in place.
I do have a saw that provides a snug fit where I can push the fret in with a finger, so I was thinking of using that with glue in the slots and then just clamping them down till it drys. Is this a good way of doing it? It is a ukulele with a flat board, so there's no curvature to deal with.

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"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

I don't rely on glue I want the fret barp to bite. I use a .023 fret saw a .0205 tang fret wire will have about .030 over all width with the tangs to bite. I do use the glue as that helps the tang slip into the slot and acts more like a filler to hold frets in. Learning how to fret is a skill one needs to master.
I also file the sharp corners of the fret slot to allow the crown to seat better on the board.
If you can push the frets in with a finger to the crown your slot is too wide.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I don't believe its a good idea to cut oversize slots with the plan to glue in the frets. Other than Don Teeter's epoxy restoration refret procedure its customary to cut slots and have fret wire that matches -- .023 is popular. In your case if the wire is popping out seems its not perfectly flat and not conforming to the FB. That said I do use a droplet of CA on the fret wire ends for a little insurane.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

StewMac fret barber. Every fretwire I've tried has been different, and there's a fine line between requiring excessive force and not being tight enough. Better to adjust the frets to the slot rather than finding a perfect saw for every wire you use, unless maybe if you only ever use one or two different wires.

And really, the barbs on standard wire just seem too big to ever fully embed in the wood, especially with really hard species like ebony or blackwood. I'd rather have the tang itself almost fill the slot, and just small barbs to grip into the walls, with glue to fully encase it.

A dremel cutoff wheel also works to grind down the barbs, but it's pretty tricky and time consuming. Plus I worry about exactly where all that metal dust is going...

I fully understand that this isn't standard practice, but there have been a few professionals on here that said they use this method. I think MichaelN was one of them if I remember rightly. Unfortunately I can't find the threads anymore.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

I have been considering that fret barber tool, but there's no way I can justify spending so much on it for just a hobby. I wonder if I could make one myself.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

The main difficulty in making one would be getting properly shaped files. They need to be rounded on top to be usable on fretwire that comes coiled. Otherwise there's not much to it. Just a collection of feeler gauges, and the main holder thing which has a pin to butt the files up against so they can't slide forward when pulling the fretwire through, and a bolt to press the files (with feeler gauge between them) against the wall to set the width.

If you can find or make suitable files, the rest should be easy to whip up on your own out of wood, with a nail for the pin, and maybe a nut glued to the wood for the bolt to grip.

Your saw is cutting a slot a little too wide. It needs some bite but not quite the 'standard' that is usually given. Put it another way, when I use the glue in method there is no way it will go in with finger pressure. It will go in using fairly light taps with the end of the chisel though. You will need to clamp until the glue is properly set. I use Fish glue.
Do as I did, a few tests before you commit yourself to the method. You can reduce the set of your saw (a touch) by stoning each side of the blade. Just run a medium grit oil stone down the side of the teeth. One stroke each side, then test. If it's a western saw hopefully the saw plate will be 0.5 mm's. Saw plate that is 0.6 mm's does not give enough clearance or chance of tooth set. The better western saws are something like the LN thin gauge dovetail saw. It's saw plate is 0.4 mm, plenty of room for tooth set. It's expensive though and the set will probably need altering. I use the Veritas carcass saw but I stoned the side of the teeth a little.
If this doesn't prove that the method works, I don't know what will. One fret is put in with the standard slot, hammered in. The other with a slightly wider slot, glued and clamped. No prizes for guessing which is which. The glue fills in all around the barbs but you need a certain amount of mechanical grip too, just not as much as what is normally given. If you were to fret using this method off the Guitar the fretboard would take on a very gentle back bow, perhaps none. Using the standard method it takes on a severe backbow.

what saw are you using?
As for Professionals that use it. I know 100's of pro builders that do not use glue for holding the frets. Many use the glue as it works much like a lube to allow the frets to silp into the slot and then act as a filler.
Double check your technique it may be as simple as making a good slotting box . I use the saw blade in my radial arm saw. I found hand saws will allow a lot of slop. You can help control that with making a saw slot box and use UHMW nylon as a bushing to hold the saw square and true. You can even set up a stop.
I used the stew mac hand saw for a few years, the stop help control the depth of cut and 1/2 in nylon , one screwed and the other slotted. That allowed me to hold the saw and I had to do was push it. Get the variables out of the process and you will see the process come into control. You can also buy frets with different tang width , so what tang width do you use? I use widths from .0185 to .0235

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I agree with John Hall's comments. When cutting fret slots, only a couple of thousands can make a difference and a person would have to be very good with a hand saw to stay that accurate. I use a dedicated table saw with a .023 blade and sled to cut slots, adjusting the fret barbs with a crimping tool or the SM fret barber to achieve that perfect mechanical fit. Sometimes I glue (tiny dots of CA on the ends and center of the fret) and sometimes I don't. If the frets cause backbow they are too tight.

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It will probably be alright.

Every single fretboard I have done has been with a handsaw. Hundreds of them. If you are having trouble cutting slots with a hand saw it suggests that the saw is too dull and/or it has got the incorrect set. Finding a suitable saw can be a little tricky but not impossible. Much easier if you know how to set and sharpen western saws. Alternately look at the Japanese style. Cutting on the pull stroke means they are in tension and thin gauge saw plate is very common for that style of saw.
Your standard fretting procedure will not (or should not) cause a back bow on the neck. It certainly will cause a back bow if you fret off the neck, which is the point I was making and gives an indication of the actual kerf difference between the standard procedure and the glue in method.
BTW. Both methods work and both certainly work using hand saws. It's simply a matter of getting the basics right. A sharp, correctly set and thin gauge plate saw can transform your experience of this.

If you have a saw that cuts slots that are too tight , you could try adding a little more set to the teeth. With fine toothed saws you can reset the teeth in "groups" rather than individually, similar to what some hack saw blades do.
For the low tension of a uke glued in frets might work fine if you use a glue that sets up hard.

Hi, first time poster on this forum, but this is certainly my wheelhouse...

Don't go the glue route on a uke. Just find the right saw. Look for a TopMan Flush Cut saw. Cheap, made in China 6" blade, pull cut. very sharp, and measures .024" kerf which I think you'll find perfect for pressing or hammering in uke sized fret wire.

It's available in the US at Harbor Freight. http://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-flus ... 39273.html
just $10





Rodney Paul Adams

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Rodney Paul Adams

One old method is to have the slot a bit wide, then add actual barbs (not bumps) to the fret tang by tapping the long edge of the tang with the corner of a mill file. These barbs occupy a small volume and do not tend to back bow the fingerboard. I am guessing that this method was used prior to the availability of frets with bumps on the tang.

You can make your own barb remover. Just cut a groove to match the radius of your fret wire in some scrap plywood. Then mount a small file into a small block of wood by drilling a hole to accept the file handle with a pivot in the block that matches the radius of the wire. I use mine to remove most of the barb on my mandolin fret wire.

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http://www.cushmanguitars.com/.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Wow thanks for all the suggestions!
A table saw method of slotting is out of the question because money is tight, as is buying a load of different hand saws to find the one that's just right. I could try abusing one of my tenon saws to give it a narrower kerf - I hadn't thought of that. I've never tried adjusting a saw before.
Rodney - I can't find that particular make of saw here in the UK, but it looks like one of those cheap japanese style saws with the disposable blades. I have a couple of those and the kerf is as near as I can measure 0.6mm (0.024'') but the fretwire I have seems very tight and fights to go in the slot, if it goes at all.
On second thoughts, maybe it is slightly under - I tried putting a sliver of 0.6mm veneer into the slot and that didn't quite fit. I wish saw sellers would advertise the kerf in the description.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

Peter, keep in mind that the thickness of the saw blade, and the "kerf" it leaves behind after a cut are two different things (well, sometimes). The reason the saw I show works just right is because it's a flush-cut saw - with no set to the teeth. A saw with a .024" blade with "set" teeth, will give you a larger kerf than the thickness of the blade. Depending, it could be a little, or it could be a lot bigger. I too wish every saw listed for sale had the blade thickness AND the kerf in the description.!

Additionally, seating the fret will seem surprisingly tight to "first timers", it only seems more of a natural fit after you're used to the process. I press them in after seating just one end of the fret with a brass hammer. It takes a fair amount of force to get them well seated. Practice different techniques and woods until you get a "feel" for it. Best of luck.

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Rodney Paul Adams

I believe one of the most important elements when installing frets is to have a solid work surface. The FB has to be stationary and clamped down as well.

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/fret.html

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Ken's advice is sound
Lets look at a few things from a process point of view
A removing tangs is not what you want to do You need the tang for seating the fret
B Remove the variables of the process
Have the saw stationery look for a .023 slot when done
Pull saws work better than push
C Tangs will come in variable widths and tang width and barb with are 2 different things. Barbs are about .005 per side so a .0205 tang may mic at .030 measure the tang not the barbs
D Glue will let the barbs slip and the water swells the wood to help bite.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. If the frets are not correct the guitar will not play to its maximum potential.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

More things to keep in mind: There's a big difference between fretting off the instrument and on. I'm not sure which way Peter is doing.

And uke wire tends to have a large tang. StewMac's is .023", I think, and LMI's evo gold is listed as .023" tang (.036" with barbs), and LMI's nickel silver is listed as .024" tang (.031" with barbs). That's why I say to just get the tools to adjust the wire to the slot... they're all very different. Having a feel for it means you know when you've got it sized right. Not going to help you if it's not sized right. And there's no way every wire is going to be right in the same .023" slot right off the bat.

To take out some of the variables I should say this is not the first time I've done this. I've done one pre slotted rw board that went fine, one ebony board that I slotted myself that was a nightmare but worked in the end and one jatoba board that I also slotted myself and worked perfectly. On all the ones I did myself I used the same saw - a bahco japanese style pull saw. Obviously the jatoba was easier because it was softer. On all 3 I fretted the boards before attaching to the neck so there was a very firm surface underneath. I've tried pressing and hammering. I got a deadblow hammer for the last one which seemed to work ok. I think the fretwire is from stewmac but I got it on ebay so not entirely sure.
I've narrowed my problems down to the width of the slot/width of the barbs. So my options are to either file down each fret (tedious and slow) or saw a wider slot and glue them in which is why I was asking about that method to start with. Maybe I'll just keep looking for a different saw.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

The fingerboard hardness can be a big variable when fitting frets in a board. Ebony and rosewood can vary in hardness. That is why I like to size the barb to the slot. I can use most fret wire this way. When placing a large number of frets in a short span of board as is found on a mandolin you can get in trouble with to much wedging causing a back bow. I can remove as much of the barb as I want in only a few seconds (with my file set up that I made free from scrap). I used to try to file them by hand but that's way to slow. A well fitting fret is easy to replace. With some hide glue to help hold them in you don't need to crush much wood to get a good solid fret installation.

_________________
http://www.cushmanguitars.com/.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

why do you remove the barb ?

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I don't fully remove the barb. If the barbs are to thick I file each side down so they have less total width. With thinner barbs there is less wedging to cause back bow. They go in easier and they come out easier as well. I still want a snug fit so I shoot for a total barb width .002" over the slot width. For a guitar the fit isn't a real big deal but a mandolin has 21 frets in a 9" span so it can add up to trouble if the frets are over wedged. With a little hide glue they stay put and sound fine.

_________________
http://www.cushmanguitars.com/.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Yes, basically that's no different to cutting a slightly wider slot and gluing them in. The difference is that you are reducing the barbs in relation to the saw kerf whilst I am widening the saw kerf in relation to the barbs. I use Fish glue, you use HHG. The Fish held the fret a little better in my tests but HHG certainly worked.
Your experience with the Mandolin was similar to my experience with early romantic guitars. Except I had the fretboard splitting at the very last fret (fretting on the Guitar). They are very thin Ebony fretboards, much thinner than your average Guitar. Fretting off the guitar just results in a huge back bow and a board that distorts across it's width.
The idea of using a slightly wider slot and gluing them in was an obvious potential solution. A few tests later and I needed no other form of encouragement.
That's the beauty of making different types of instruments. You hit different problems and have to come up with different solutions.